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I ran out of time on a build and punted. When to local guitar shop and they did the final setup. That was embarrassing because the guy was GOOD. But you could tell he thought very little of my setup progress. I have never had a build sound this good. So it is freaking clear as heck I don't know what I'm doing. I just wanna hang out with a setup pro for the next 3 in the pipeline. To include fret leveling, crowning, nut & saddle shaping etc. In one hour, this guy did what I could not trying all last night. I admit it. I suck at this. I need help.

Practice, Mike.
I started out on junk guitars I bought.
Made a new nut every week, refretted the neck every month, and refinished the whole shebang every other month.
It's just practice.
How many have I done in 35 years?
Dunno. A LOT.
But I'm really good now, compared to how I was after 3 years.

Probably not helping you, am I?

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Mike, I have seen what you can do..you have great skills! You will get better at setups because I can see you really want to.

Michael

That's not a bad idea, actually... I should take one of mine to a pro sometime and see if they can improve on it.

Take measurements of everything so you can try to duplicate it on the next one. 12th fret action, nut action, relief. Measured on both the low and high strings (and maybe one of the middle strings too if you want). Also closely examine (with magnification if needed) the shape of the nut slots, with strings off.

Intonation is more tricky to measure, but my guess is that your nut action was too high before because that makes it even more impossible than usual to get good intonation everywhere. You can at least check the 12th fret harmonic versus fretted pitch to see if he went with the method of equalizing those, or if he used some other approach. Look closely at the saddle too (with strings on), and see how it's shaped, and how the strings go over it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXfyVb3L3G0

this may help

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

https://www.facebook.com/mike.omelia/vi ... 333997131/

https://www.facebook.com/mike.omelia/vi ... 364557895/

I'm sorry if u are not a FB member (u living under a rock ). But this is what I mean. I could not remotely get this guitar to do that. It's so frustrating to not know what to do. Hey John! Thanks for answering my truss rod question this morning! See what I mean? I'm currently clueless. Thanks to the guy at the shop, it exploded into its potential. What disappointed me was I was encouraged to not bring another custom guitar into the shop. But, what that guy (who did magic on my guitar) does not know is the owner of the store is a long time school friend of my wife. Yet, I only want someone doing this because they want to.

Chris, I dunno. I'm an engineer. But I also have a creative side. I get the technical aspects. And I'm positive if I understood the physics behind it, I'd be able to do it. But the best tuners aren't physicists. They just know. My jaw dropped off my face when I strummed that guitar after the setup. I'm totally blown away at how little I know here. I didn't even know the truss rod could be adjusted to create concave fretboard. My neck bent slightly convex.

Mike,

You're far from alone here. Learning to build from forums on the web, books, DVDs and the like gets you far along the visual aspect of building, but provides little of the touchy-feely stuff like tone and playability and what makes a guitar a guitar. Aside from what others have mentioned, it might be of value to find a way to play and examine a really fine guitar, not to take measurements, but to get a tactile sense of what a makes a really good instrument. Do this as often as possible. It can be a disappointment at first if it ends up just showing you how far you have to go, but as John Hall says, "You don't know what you don't know until you know it."

I too started out doing repairs and fixing up old junker guitars years ago, long before I ever built one. By the time I started building, I'd done a LOT of setups and neck resets. Now, 40 years later, that experience is more valuable to me than all the hours I've put into building.

You could find a junker, take it apart, reset the neck, do a refret, setup, and repeat all of it until the guitar just can't take any more. Then find another and repeat. Jump in and get your hands dirty. Ebay might be a source. Good luck!

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Pat, I'm talking about the last 1% of the process. And I agree it's the important part. Look at the video if u can. The guy who fixed my problem spent less than an hour on it and charged me $25. I got 99% right, but couldn't climb the last 100 feet to the top of Everst. Seriously, last night I was almost in tears at 2am in the morning. What I failed to do is properly set neck relief and my nut slots sucked (so I was told).

It is amazing how the final touches can make such a difference to the guitar. Sounds like it could be good experience though, your guitar is sounding like it should and you know you just had a couple of things you need to refine. I took the first guitar I build on commission to a setup pro and learned the same lesson, my action at the first fret was too high. My nut slots sucked.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

You know, the skills you admire and want for yourself are not all that well covered in the books on building guitars. I mean, they are covered, but maybe not as well as other things. I think you would benefit from shifting your focus to the materials Stew Mac sells on setups. They have books and videos.

More hands on experience is valuable and necessary, but you can speed things along a bit by learning from repair resources instead of building resources.

This is exactly what I have been trying to shed some light on and using myself and my own experiences as an example. As a builder only we never get enough opportunity to do final set-ups, fret work, etc. to have it really start to make sense to us.

Don't feel bad Mike the same thing happened to me too and the repair professional that I visited who without saying anything took my new ax, put it on his bench and started cutting nut slots as we talked about other things.... was Dave Collins. It was an enlightening experience for me so much so that it forever changed my life since I decided to be a repair pro as a result of this exchange. These days I set-up guitars every single day and love it!

Builders or at least I did tend to focus on the woodworking aspects of guitar building and neglect the finer points that will make the stinkin thing playable..... Nothing wrong with the woodworking aspects but there is certainly much, much more to a successful guitar than how thin your glue lines are.....

Everything that I read and that's everything that's out there made set-up, neck angle, fret work MUCH more complicated than it needs to be. We have a phenomena in the Lutherie trade as well and that is that many Luthiers learned what they know on the job and may not have had much interaction with others.

As such and not to be negative but "bad work" is readily available in many towns USA from Luthiers who may have settled on one practice or another that these days are frowned on. With this said if you do take an instrument for out-sourced work be sure to get references about who you are taking it to. Not trying to spread fear, uncertainty, or doubt but you also don't want to be the guy who takes a new ax to a Luthier and finds out that he/she cut off the fret board extension at the body joint to improve the neck angle....

You also don't want anyone touching your frets who does not do so addressing the entire fret plane as a whole. Lots of Luthiers these days are moving or already do address the entire fret plane as a whole but there are still many, many who think that a 3 fret stone will do the trick..... wrong....

Mike our number is in the book, Ann Arbor Guitars and I would be happy to help you any time that you want some assistance. Simply give me a call during business hours, M - F, 10 - 6 and I am sure that I can walk you though most if not all of this stuff on the phone AND would be happy to do so. Remember I needed and went for help too so the path that you are on is par for the course and you should not feel bad at all. In fact deciding to seek out help says a lot of good things about you to me!

FYI and I'm not shilling, well maybe a little... our fretting classes filled completely in two days so not only will we be doing more we also are offering another offering, "Set-up For Builders" with dates to be announced. This class will address setting the neck angle, gluing on bridges, making nuts, and saddles and everything you need to know to set-up a new (or used) guitar. It will also be a one day class in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor... The really most important part at least to me is that lunch will also be provided...

Mike give me a call if you think that I can help?

I would like to add a little info from a slightly different perspective.
I am first a player of guitars, both hand built and factory built. I have owned too many for one person.
Second an amateur (though trained in a recognized luthiery school) set up and repair person.
Every guitar I own has had some setup work done on it.
Why? Because every guitar player plays differently. Different music, different technique, different sound. The good setup pros I have been to don't even touch the guitar until they find out how I play and what I want the guitar to do.
They also know the trade offs between what I want as a player and what those wants will do to the sound of the guitar.
As a setup person I hope to work within this trade space. I have a long way to go. I don't do this for a living so I am in no hurry.
Just for me, because of my combination of experience, if I commissioned a fine hand built guitar and was not asked about setup along with wood choice etc, I would be surprised,at least.

I hope this is helpful as input from a different perspective. It is not intended in any way as criticism.
Dave

So... To put this into perspective. Most factory guitars take way over 1 hour to do a decent setup on. If it took the guy an hour soup to nuts - your fundamentals are good but you are missing out on one or 2 critical items.

For example - the fretboard must have been very level and the frets properly pressed or you would have had another 3 hours on level and crown. The basics are there - you just have to finish the job.


Bring another one in for a once over and chat the guy up. Ask him what you are doing wrong. Watch what he does looking for the missing pieces.

A lot of these guys like talking to a fellow who can appreciate what they are really doing - and they like bragging on their work.

Thanks.

I worked in a repair shop while I was in high school. I kinda had a reverse experience...I made all these shoddy instruments that played and sounded top notch.

Will help me. Watched and will again when I get mine near complete

Knowledge is one thing.
Experience is another.
Guess which one you need.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I beg to differ.....

Working Luthiers need to remain focused on their/our work and time is very much money for us and usually there is not enough of either.

As such the folks who I know who work in the trade everyday tend to not want visitors and certainly not visitors who want to "drop in."

We are also sensitive to having client instruments on our benches with work in progress as someone we don't know wants to come up and see what's happening, perhaps touch something (they get their hand slapped... ) or even take a photo. It's not uncommon for us to meet builders who are visiting Ann Arbor because their kid is at the university. They always want to chat, check out our wood stash, see what we are doing, ask advice, etc. We are usually NOT keen to have anyone in our space unless it's been set-up in advance and agreed to by us as well. I know this to be true for some of the other Luthiers that I know too.

In respect to aspiring builders (and perhaps repair people....) who want to ask us how to do this or that or even borrow a tool they can go drink paddy water again if it was not set-up in advance and we agreed to participate.

Would you walk into an auto shop and proclaim that you want to do your own work and not pay the shop so tell me how to do it??? I think not. I'll add that a request to use the hydraulic lift to do your own brakes might get you physically thrown out of the place as well.

One more related thought. Back in the day when I was considering going ugly early and selling my stuff I visited the big guitar shows. When I would meet someone who I knew from on-line activities I was VERY sure to understand in advance that these guys (and women too) have spent lots of money and sucked up lots of time to come to this show and exhibit. I'm not a prospect for them to realize significant economic gain by me buying anything. Instead I'm a time suck, not a prospect, and my interaction with my heroes needs to be if no one else is around so there is no "opportunity cost" to the folks who I want to relate to and talk with. I would also say this to these folks that if anyone comes near the table I'm fading into black....

Lots of Luthiers are willing to share but it's like any other trade folks need to make a living too, keep promises, etc. Please respect this when you are intending to visit Luthiers but have no intention of being a paying client. Many of us are happy to help and many of us do help but we also have to live to work another day and that means that our commercial spaces and time needs to be respected just like any other professional.

Amen to that! If we (KMG) allowed visitors we would get zero work done, every single day we get requests to come in and pay a visit. Like Hesh says -- its not that we don't want to help and show an appreciation of and to those in the craft and trade -- but, shut down to chat? Even phone conversation can be disruptive. Thankfully the internet has made it possible to share experience and views. Using this median pros can provide help and socialize in a workable time frame.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I sometimes politely explain to folks that I have to keep moving and fire up the dust collector (5hp!) It can have an expediting effect.

Took me a long time to learn that. When my shop was in one of the largest music stores in town, it was not uncommon for several clients to hang out in my shop while work was on my bench, and the bench of my apprentice. Many used to joke that I should put in a couch and a bar for their convenience. I would joke that I should have a cover charge to gain access to my inner sanctum. The last few years were crazy - I was busy from 9:30AM to almost midnight, and had customers nearly all the time on the phone or in person.

The day I realized things had to change? I had 4 guitars on the bench, my apprentice had 3 on his bench, all 3 lines of the phone were for me, I had clients hanging out in the shop, and the UPS guy walked in with a COD, and needed a check. Utter chaos, right? So glad I came to my senses! Now I mostly pick up the work and bring it home, but I have a "go bag" of tools for setups to work when I'm onsite (without a client looking over my shoulder). Much less stress!

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Chris when we were doing contract work for a music store it drove us crazy too.... It was a very bad situation for all concerned so I can completely relate. Here are some of the issues that I recall with the number one below being the worst issue of all:

1) We did not take in the instruments to be repaired. Instead some mouth-breather who worked in the store and knew nothing about repair work would write up the repairs pretty much putting on the tag what the client said they wanted.... So.... set-ups where often called "truss rod adjust...." Worse yet instruments that could not be set-up without other issues addressed first such as needing a neck reset or bridge reglue or fret dress to be capable of being set-up well were never addressed. As such we had to call the clients, be the bringer of bad news that the "truss rod adjust" had become a neck reset, bridge reglue, fret dress and a new nut and that original $35 quote quickly became $1,200.... I've never had any issues telling folks the way things are... but who wants to be the heavy all of the time....

2) The store like many stores had bought an elephant to run on a mouse in terms of enterprise software. As such the software that the store used sucked like most retail POS (point of sale not piece of *(*&) software. The software was running the employees instead of being of service to all including the employees. We could not have strings in our shop which required us to do four flights of stairs to get a pack of stinkin strings....

3) The store owner (remind me to talk about resident owners.... ) could not let a buck go out the door. So even if we were called downstairs to evaluate an instrument things could get worse fast. I recall one basket case Vega archtop that needed a neck reset and the budget was not there. The client after talking to us was leaving with the guitar and the owner encountered them on the front porch and told them that we would be happy to turn the thing into a lap steel.....

Just when we thought that we were out......

4) Unauthorized use of our personal tools by the mouth-breathers who worked the sales floor....

5) This was one of the more infamous incidents... The owner screwed up a strap button on the heel install never considering that the instrument, a Godin had a bolt on neck. So you guessed it he drilled into the neck bolt...

He didn't want to ask us to bail him out just yet so his efforts to repair the damage made it substantially worse.... When he finally did come to us with tail between his legs it was so bad that we can't fix it either.... The client should have received a replacement instrument and there were several in stock but that's not what happened.... sadly....

Music store work can be very, very difficult because the objectives are very different. Stores want sales where Luthiers want to provide real, measurable value and make our clients happy, always. In order to do this though the repair folks need to be the "decider........" (attribution to W ) of what gets taken in and what promises are made. This single thing made our store experiences a nightmare because we did not have control over what came in. We often turn work away because it is not in the best interest of the client and once in a while our interest either. This is an ability that independent Luthiers must retain ultimately and never be in a position where we have to keep the promises of the mouth-breathers.....

6) Lastly it's the snake oil and tone police thing. When a client wants to know if a loose clip for his pup wire management will change the tone of his Martin and this has happened before with the same client who seems to buy into what he reads on the web... we need to be able to respectfully suggest that he darken some other shops doorway AND we do just that... We won't make any promises about tone related things and with good reason - it's subjective as all hell.

We can promise that frets will no longer be loose or that a nut slot won't make a guitar sound like a sitar but we can't and won't promise that this pup will be more appreciated over that pup.

When a client comes up the stairs and immediately starts ich about poor work received elsewhere not only is this a red flag that the client may suck as a client.... you have to be in a position to set expectations correctly, honestly, and also define boundaries as well. If the client balks don't do the work for them. With stores this is FAR more difficult and not a situation that I ever want to be in again.

Anyway lots of us want to help others which is an understatement for us at our shop. But we also have to make a living, keep promises, do the best work possible the vast majority of the time, and live to play another day in terms of keeping the lights on and paying the bills. Visitors are welcome with us but we also want to know about it in advance so that we are not on a deadline, etc.

Folks like Chris, Ken, Link, David F., Dave C. and I are frequently sharing knowledge on this very forum with very little ever coming back our way. We do so because we are GREAT guys..... and in some cases may feel that we have a duty to give something back too.

I know that many of you are simply interested in learning to build guitars and that's great, it's how all this madness started for me too... so be careful.....

As such I encourage new builders to visit your local pro Luthiers but call first please and set it up. Most of us are pretty generous with our time unless you catch us on an Ov*tion day....

WOW, Hesh. You got it ROUGH!


I guess I can thank my lucky stars the internet was not invented when I was in the store. That would be even more pressure. Also, my store owner was a great player, a not a complete butthead about repairs. For the most part, it was a convivial atmosphere to work in. We had spats, sure - nothing like your troubles.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince